The culture of capitalism and consumption often makes us lose sight of why we work in the first place. In this episode, we’ll attempt to uncover what you really want to make work meaningful and joyous. Nigel Clayton is an entrepreneurial business coach/mentor and the owner of Ultrapreneur Success. His method is helping people pull out that leadership part of them without telling them what to do, when to do it, and how to do it, underscoring the importance of figuring out what you really want in life and in business. Join him and host Stephen Jaye as they dive deep into today’s culture and the issues being brought to the surface by the recent pandemic and the changes that will come with it. Stay tuned!
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How To Make Work Meaningful And Joyous With Nigel Clayton
Welcome to the show. In this program, we’re all about opening up to more possibilities, getting you out of what I call the scripted life, and getting you into the life that you really want. That’s going to mean different things for different people. I’m not here to tell you what that thing is, what it means for you, or what your path is going to be. That’s for you to figure out, but for a lot of us, that path is going to involve some form of entrepreneurship. Even if you’re not specifically starting your own practice or starting your own business, there are aspects of the entrepreneurial mindset that can benefit you in any of these pursuits. I bring to you my guest, Nigel Clayton, who is an Entrepreneurial Coach and Mentor and has been for a few decades.
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Nigel, welcome to the program.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
Thank you so much for joining us. Having been an entrepreneurial coach for so many years, you have so many insights into what makes certain entrepreneurs succeed and fail. My first question for you is, what is the mindset that anyone needs to adapt before going into any entrepreneurial pursuit?
If you can't think about what you want, think about what you don't want. And then think about what's the opposite of that. Share on XI think that’s a hard thing to do in a way because the majority of our lives have been trained to be followers, whether it’s in school or working for somebody else. Somebody has been there telling us what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. People then get this bright idea of, “I’m going to be an entrepreneur. Everything is going to be great. I got this plan of selling this product or service.” They’re all jumping up and down like Tony Robbins and saying, “I’m going to rule the world,” and then they realize after a while what they’ve gotten themselves into. Part of it is there isn’t somebody telling them what to do, when to do it, and how to do it, so a lot of them are not prepared to be in that situation.
They either react to it positively and they’re able to make the decisions they need to make quickly, or they don’t, and if they don’t, then they try to find somebody that will help them. Much of the time, that person is going to end up being the next trainer that’s going to make them stay being a follower. They need to go from being a follower to being a leader, but you can’t train leadership in the entrepreneurial world. Training somebody means they’re still following somebody.
In Corporate America, since it’s a completed structure and there are little pockets of leadership in there, they can be trained within that little pocket. In the entrepreneurial world, everything is their responsibility. They’re like on stage. All the lights are on them, everybody can see them, and they got to make all the decisions. That’s the biggest problem they have.
What I do is help them pull that leadership part of them out of them without telling them what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. I don’t tell people what to do. I don’t keep them accountable. I don’t say, “Did you do this?” It’s all of those kinds of things that a lot of people do to try and get people to be entrepreneurs, but they’re doing corporate light, which doesn’t work.
It’s like a half transition from back in school. You learn the teacher tells you what to do, and then you wait for the teacher to evaluate it and give you a grade. No one even realizes that you get a C on your assignment. That’s just one person’s opinion, so that can be an interesting thing that we all go through and that people need to break free from that entire system whether it be growing up the teacher and your parents, or as an adult, the boss, or whoever deems themselves the ultimate authority.
Is there something someone can do to start breaking free? Let’s say someone is in a corporate job right now, and they’re not in the financial position to leave it and start their own firm, but they have an idea for doing it down the road. Is there something someone could start doing to start learning those skills needed to become that decision-maker, to become ready to be accountable, to face that fear of being on that stage, and having that decision impact their company and their own followers they are eventually going to have such as employees?
The biggest thing is not necessarily a skill. It’s digging deep into who I am, which is a very complicated question. What makes me me? What makes me make a certain decision? What happened in my life that makes something more important than other things when I decide? What things make me make decisions even though it might seem risky to other people, but there are things that I do because it may be part of my value system? Who am I is a very important but complicated question. Most people don’t dive deep into that typically unless they have a near-death experience, somebody they love that’s close to them dies, or somebody close to them has a near-death experience, then they go, “Who am I? What’s important to me?”
The same question is asked if they have a near-death experience. What do I want to do now that I’m looking at it from a different perspective and I’m not following the crowd? I’m not one of the other Brown buffaloes in the Brown buffalo herd going over the plains. They’re all saying, “I’m not a Brown buffalo, I’m a White buffalo, but nobody can notice that,” because you’re doing everything the brown buffalos are doing. Who am I, what’s important to me, and why are very important questions to start asking yourself and digging deep, and then how important is it for you to be successful with whatever you’re thinking or trying?
What I ask people is on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most important thing to you, what is it? I typically get something like, “It’s a 6.5, maybe a 7.” You’re not going to make it. It’s got to be a 20, 100, or 1,000 on a scale of 1 to 10 for you to even have a chance. This is not like, “I’ll do as much as I can in this class, and I can make a B.” It’s going to take everything you’ve got to make it work. You may not know what it is. If you can’t think about what you want, think about what you don’t want, and then what’s the opposite of that.
One thing I’m wondering as far as figuring out that sense of self, I’ve been introduced to this tool called the 5 Whys, which is you ask a question and when you answer it, you ask a question about that question and do that in five iterations with the hope that that gets you to the real, deep-seated reason for why that surface-level action is happening. Is this a tool you think a lot of people can use to discover their sense of self?
Absolutely. Let’s say you get a group of people, and you ask them, “How are you doing?” Most of them are going to say, “Fine. Good.” It’s the public answer. It’s the answer I’m going to give to the public for that question. It’s coming from the rational brain. It’s something that they’ve thought about, like, “If I’m going to answer, this is the answer I’m going to use.” Maybe everybody has learned this is the answer, but that’s not the real answer.
People would come to me and say, “I need to make more money this year,” and I’d say, “Why do you need to make more money this year?” They’d say, “Last year, we didn’t make as much money, so we weren’t able to implement the things that we wanted to do last year, so this year, we need to make more money to implement those things.” It’s coming from here. The more I ask them, “Why is that important?” The more you ask that, it goes from here to your heart. That’s where the real answer is, and the real answer might be, “I want to prove to my father that I can do this.” That’s the thing that’s driving them. That’s the thing that pulls them forward. That’s the reason they’re doing it. It may not be a positive reason, but that’s the reason.
Is there a danger in negative reasons? Is that something that would prevent people from succeeding more than people with positive reasons, or are they just as powerful?
They’re powerful. My brother went to work for a tile company when he was nineteen. They said, “If you sell a certain amount of tile in a month, you can stay as a salesperson.” He sold it in a week. He never sold tile before. He said, “I listened to what people said that they wanted, and I gave it to them.” Ten years later, he was in charge of four states in the Northwestern United States and all the stores in those states. His goal was to be a millionaire by the time he was 30. He was 29 and was making really good money. He went for a checkup with his doctor, and his doctor said, “You’re overweight. You have high blood pressure. You’re stressed out, and you’ve bitten off all of your fingernails. If you don’t change your lifestyle, you’re not going to make it to 30.”
I said to him, “What are you going to do with this $1 million?” He said, “I don’t know,” and I said, “You’re killing yourself to get this, and you don’t even know why?” He says, “I don’t.” I said, “Think about it and come back and tell me.” A couple of days later, he came back, and he said, “If I’m a millionaire, people will respect me.” I said, “Will they if you’re not?” Two days later, he quit his job. He took his family from Denver to Tucson.
He didn’t have a job. That’s where he stayed the rest of his life. He never made the money he made in those years. He drove a truck and wore cowboy boots. He was happy as heck. He died a couple of years ago, and all these people came to a funeral. All of them said, “No matter what your role was in Allan’s life, you knew he respected you, whatever the kind of person you were.” He got it by respecting other people, not making $1 million.
How To Make Work Meaningful And Joyous With Nigel Clayton Share on XOne of the interesting things about your brother’s story is that it seems similar to some of the other stories that we’ve covered in previous episodes of this show where it’s not necessarily a specific near-death experience like you talk about, but it’s one where there’s some sort of large awakening due to one thing or another. People suddenly come to a realization that what they’re doing isn’t working. I think one of my previous guests said that he works with people who will often say, “I don’t know what I want to do, but I know I can’t keep doing this.”
Do you think events like this or these realizations, whether it be, as you mentioned, the doctor’s appointment, or someone one day waking up and looking in the mirror and maybe they meditated for the first time in six years and realized that this is not the life they want? Can it serve almost as a proxy for these near-death experiences where people snap out of whatever trends they’re in and say, “I need to think about who I am, and then from there, what it is that I want to do.”
Yeah. I think we’re all trained to be followers, and sometimes, we follow other people’s advice. We’ve not only been trained to be followers but we’ve also been trained to believe that somebody else knows better about what’s best for us. If you think about that, that’s insanity. How can somebody else know better what’s best for us? They’re not us. Your parents might say, “Why don’t you go and be this because you’re good at that?”
I had somebody in an office share, and they had all these pictures on their wall. They were their father, their grandfather, their great-grandfather, and their great-great-grandfather. They were all attorneys. It’s like being in the circus where they’re like, “We’re a circus family. Everybody is in the circus.” Does everybody that’s in there want to be in the circus? That’s what happens.
I think a lot of people realize at some point, like, “This isn’t what I want to do. It will make my family, my friends, or whomever happy if I do it because that’s what they expect me to do, but this isn’t really me.” Very famous people who became very famous and rich were directed in one direction, but they didn’t get rich or famous in that direction their family put them in. They went, “That’s not what I want to do. I want to do this.”
I was going to reframe that a little bit. Do you feel like nearly everybody has at least some version of that experience? What do you think most people do when they experience that, “This might not be what I wanted in life where I just listen to a family member, a good friend, the wisdom of the crowd?
I think it can be assimilated differently with different people. Some people might experience fear like, “If I’m not going to do that, then what am I going to do? I don’t know what I’m going to do.” Some people may experience it because they’re exhausted. I broke my back when I was nineteen. I knew I didn’t want to do a labor job for the rest of my life, and I couldn’t. There are all kinds of things that made them awaken to, “This isn’t what I want to do.”
When you get past maybe high school, college, whatever training, and then you’ve been doing it for a decade or more, then you might see the repetitiveness of it. If the repetitiveness becomes boring, draining, and not rejuvenating, I think that’s when they go, “Is this right? Is it supposed to be like this?” I think that’s when a lot of people question it. We’ve been trained to believe that work isn’t supposed to be fun. Why do you think they call it work?
There’s a reason why our entire life seems to be based around this dread of the workweek like, “We have to make certain things fun.” Taco Tuesdays or the Friday Night Happy Hour, everything in our culture is based around the idea of people not enjoying their work. Also, working Monday through Friday, which doesn’t always necessarily have to be the case too.
One of the interesting things is that in your Ultrapreneur Success group session, you bring up the idea of rejuvenating activities versus the ones that are draining. Is this another thing that people should be paying attention to, especially when they start getting to this point that some people refer to as a “quarter-life crisis,” but there are other ways to look at it? It’s that moment when you realize, “I need to start thinking about something else besides what I’ve been trained to think about life, work, and everything.” Is this something that people need to be thinking about right away what’s rejuvenating, what’s draining, and how should someone go about looking into that as a person?
I think it’s something you should be looking at, but most people don’t. At the same time, the people that we admire and think are successful or famous, most of them or all of them don’t look like they’re having a bad time. If you admire somebody that looks like they’re having a dreadful time, there’s another thing that you know is going on, but typically, the people we admire are having a great time. At the same time, they’re typically working long days.
Typically, they don’t need to make any more money in their world, so why are they doing that? They’re doing something that they love and rejuvenates them, so the more they do it, the more rejuvenated they become. That’s what we admire. We’re trained that somebody else knows better, and we have to do it a certain way, but yet, we admire people that don’t do it that way, and they look like they’re happier than we are, so what’s wrong with us? Why are we doing what they’re not doing?
It feels like there’s some degree of cognitive dissonance in both of these points. For example, almost everyone can identify some way that their parents didn’t know what was best for them at some point in their life. They’re like, “My parents hadn’t told me this. My parents hadn’t told me that.” Yet, they still feel like someone else knows what’s better for them, which is an odd frame of mind if you back up and think about it. No one else in this world has more of an incentive to know what’s best for you than your own parents. Maybe it’s your spouse when you get married, but no one else has more of a vested interest in your happiness and well-being than your own parents. If they can do the number of things wrong that so many people outline, why would anyone trust anyone else?
Exactly. I think it’s part of the fact that it’s a consumption society, especially here in the United States. Part of what we’re taught at a very early age is we’re not enough. We have to conform to what others tell us to be able to become enough. It’s about potential. In the future, we’ll have enough once we do these things. When I went to high school, if you got a Bachelor’s degree in college, that was cool, but then you had to get a Master’s, and after a time, you had to get a PhD, and then you had to get two Master’s and a PhD. You then had to have the whole alphabet behind your name.
You’d be like, “I’m not enough until I get everything that I can get behind me.” When is it enough? It’s about consumption, so understanding where our society is coming from without consumption, it’s game over. That’s at least what I’ve experienced in my life so far. That’s part of it. It’s about potential, which is about the future where you’re not enough, instead of capacity where you have enough, but you’re not using it all, but that means we’ve got the answers and the power to do what we want to do.
One of the things that’s interesting about our society is that there’s been a lot of talk. For reference, the time of recording is November 2021, and at this point in time, there has been a lot of talk about what people refer to as The Great Resignation. It’s where a lot of people are quitting their job and looking for something else. Do you feel like this is signaling some kind of a shift in our society that we’re going away from this consumption-based toward something different or better, or do you think it’s just with a certain select group of people and that the dominant faction of society is remaining the way it’s been for many years?
I think that due to the pandemic, there are a lot of things that are changing. I think nobody knows what all those changes are going to be. We’ve seen some of them. How many people in the world are on Zoom right now, and how many people were on Zoom years ago? That’s’ a big difference. Now, we have expanded the geographic reach of almost everybody in the world.
That creates so many more opportunities for people than there were before. People are resigning from things, so I don’t know if they would have resigned so quickly if there weren’t all these changes that we’ve already seen. How many people will now work out at home and virtually compared to pre-pandemic? I think this is going to be one of the biggest changes that have happened since the computer. I thought this virtual thing would happen several years ago or more because the technology was there, but typically, business especially doesn’t change unless it’s forced to.
It’s weird. I remember reading The Art of Non-Conformity by Chris Guillebeau. It’s a book that was written in 2010. I read it in 2013 and thought now that we have all this technology, this is stating or forecasting this change is going to happen as more and more people look and realize we had this 8:00 to 5:00, based on back when we used to do assembly lines. Now, the nature of most people’s work doesn’t even require that, and there are so many opportunities for people to orient their lives around their circadian rhythms, which differ from person to person.
An even deeper thing is we have our population increasing. Technology is replacing the number of people. Our population is going up, but the new jobs that companies are creating are going down. Are we going to have a lot of people that aren’t going to have anything to do?
One of the interesting things I speculated about the future of work is whether or not we’re shifting from a world where most people are expected to have a job, and the way we think of jobs throughout the 20th century which makes up a career, that’s being replaced with something along the lines of partnerships and gigs. We already see this a little bit with the gig economy. My episode 24 with Emily Drost covers a lot of that type of stuff.
Also, when it comes to entrepreneurship, people either starting a business might want their partners, or people need a board of advisors, and that’s where the world is going to shift from jobs to a combination of partnerships and gigs. That might mean re-orientation in work. I know a lot of people like to talk about whether or not the 40-hour workweek is going to become obsolete, and people will be more working 20 or 25-hour. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Again, I don’t think anybody knows where everything is going to go because these changes are so big and happen so quickly. We can be experiencing the remnants of that for years and years to come, but I sense that it is going to be more collaborative. I don’t know if it’s going to be something where it’s less hours that people work. When you hear things like the four-day work week, think about that mindset. I only want to work for four days or the three-day work week because I don’t like when I’m doing any more than that, where again when you look at the people you admire, they are working all the time because they love what they’re doing, so I think it’s going to change into people having the opportunity to do more of what rejuvenates them and makes them want to do more of it.
I’ve speculated even on previous episodes of this show that if their work drains someone, they can be burnt out working 30 hours a week, and if someone is rejuvenated by their work, they can do 60 hours a week and not be burned out at all, because it’s the nature of what you’re doing. What people focus on is reducing the number of hours in the workweek. They’re coming from this mindset that we talked about before of it’s assumed that you don’t like your work, or as you said, work is not supposed to be fun. That is another form of cognitive dissonance that people are admiring the people that seem like they’re having fun at work, but then still in their own life saying, “I feel guilty that this assignment was fun.” One time a year that they’re having fun at work, and they’re feeling almost guilty by like, “I got the good assignment. It’s going to have to be someone else’s turn.”
As you said, Happy Hour. Everybody is celebrating like, “For the next two days, I get to do what I love to do.” Typically, people on the weekends don’t say, I’m going to do something I hate,” but they go to work, and a lot of people are doing that. They’re like, “I’m going to work to do something I hate.”
Ideally, everybody would be doing what they love to do. If everybody did that, we would have the most productive, powerful world we've ever had. Share on XThe most important thing for the future of work and probably the future of life for that matter is that more people are doing what they love doing, what rejuvenates them, and what motivates them. You talked about the core reason. Find your why as well as your what, which is something like, “Is the actual thing I’m doing something that rejuvenates me? Is it something I like doing? Is it towards something that I care about?” That’s the perfect situation you hear about where someone started up the business and put in the hours to make it work. Now, they enjoy every day of their lives, and they also feel like they’re contributing to something that they care about.
The way I think about it is ideally, everybody would be doing what they love to do. The thing that rejuvenates them, or that makes them feel like they are doing what they are supposed to be doing where they’re like, “It fulfills me. It makes me feel like I’m doing my purpose on the planet.” if everybody did that, we would have the most productive, powerful world we’ve ever had, but that’s not what we do. We do some things we love to do, we do some things we’re good at, and we do a bunch of stuff we hate doing, so we’re not productive all the way around the world.
It’s interesting. If this ideal scenario where everyone is doing the thing that rejuvenates them, and everyone is at their top or their peak, or whatever you want to call it, represents 100%, and let’s say Soviet Russia is 1%, where do you think we are now as a culture?
I think we’re very low because we don’t really use the word joy much except at Christmas time. What they’re looking for is joy. They’re like, “I want to have joy in my life.” I don’t hear that word being used in business. It seems like that’s the only time we use it, so I think it’s very low.
I picture a Q3 earnings report coming out like, “It was a joyous Q3. We earned $26 million. That’s 5% above last year at this time.”
I remember when I went to Copenhagen in 2010. It was considered the happiest place in the world, and they were very happy. The Danes have a great time. They ride bicycles in Copenhagen because it’s expensive for cars and bike lanes everywhere. They’re all happy. At the same time, Japan’s most unhappy place in the world.
They’re pretty rich, too, compared to the rest of the world.
They’re workaholics. They literally work themselves to death.
They have a word for that in Japanese. I don’t remember what it was, but they have a word to describe working yourself to death.
Many business people die at their desks at a pretty young age, so they have a word for it. They have groups of women who survive all over Japan because so many of them.
It seems like the only way you work yourself to death is if your work is something that, as we talked about, drains you whereas your work rejuvenates you, and no matter how many hours you work, obviously, there are physical limitations. The people you see that are truly happy with their work are in no danger of working themselves to death, even though they work a lot.
You don’t have to be rich and famous to love what you do. I met many people in my life that didn’t labor-type jobs, and they were happy. They were in all kinds of different industries, and they were very happy doing what they were doing. They had pride in what they were doing. They felt good about what they were doing. They wanted to go and do it, but I still think it’s a very small percentage.
I believe the Gallup polls that I always look at that talk about engagement at work. We say something along the lines of about 20% of employees are truly engaged, and they talk about the difference between being either passive or somewhat disengaged, and then on the other end of the spectrum, which always turns out to be more than 20% of the people who are actively disengaged or actively trying to sabotage something. They’re doing something mean-spirited. That number is more than the people who are happy. Around 20% always tells me that we need to culturally take a deep breath and reconsider how we’re going about life and work.
Will it happen by itself because of this change that the pandemic brought? People always take opportunities. They’re able to take advantage of opportunities when things change. During The Great Depression, more millionaires were created than before any other time. Is it going to be where some people do some changes, but then, there’s still going to have to be forced change because something else happens?
First of all, I want to give my audience a chance to get a hold of you if they’re interested in your coaching and mentoring services. What would be the best way to contact you if someone is ready to dig into themselves and determine an entrepreneurial type of path?
You can go to UltrapreneurSuccess.com. That’s my website. My email is Nigel@UltraNigel.com, and my cellphone number is (303) 570-3031.
Thank you very much. Given that your path, you’ve been seeing people who are on some form of this journey beyond the mindset that we’ve all been conditioned to adopt for a few decades now. One thing I’m wondering is that when you talk to someone, can you tell how far someone is along on that journey or how far someone is along from being in the mindset where they’re waiting for someone to tell them what to do, where to do it, how to do it, etc., and then the ultimate destination where you know what you want to do and you’re prepared to make those tough decisions and be responsible for your choices?
I think I’m pretty quick at assessing where people are. Even though I’ve only been coaching and mentoring people for a couple of years, I owned my own CPA firm for many years, and all of my clients were the same. They were entrepreneurs or small entrepreneurial business owners with typically 25 or less employees, so I know them well. I know some of the things that they say, and I know the clues to listen for and look for. I can read where people are very quickly. Even though I’m very logical, I’m also very intuitive. A lot of people will come and tell me something, and my intuition will go, “That’s a public answer. That’s not it.” I also feel like they can trust me or they go, “How did he know that so quickly?” I think I can pretty much tell.
We all get stuck with things. It’s the journey. We have a challenge, we face it and overcome it, and then another challenge comes. It doesn’t matter if they are people thinking about starting a business or being in business for 3 to 5 or 10 to 20 years. I’ve worked with people from 20s to 70s, men, women, in every industry in the entrepreneurial world. Their background or education doesn’t matter. The way I work with people works pretty much for anybody because it’s all about them. I show them how I think the entrepreneurial world works. They understand after a while who they are, what’s important to them, and why, and then I help them by having them discover how those two can work together in harmony.
For some reason, I always envisioned my audience reading in the morning, even though it could be any time of day, but let’s say someone is reading and it’s morning. Let’s say they may have 20 or 30 minutes of free time for the day. It’s a busy weekday. What do you think is the number one thing that that person can do in those 20 to 30 minutes regardless of where they are on the mindset journey that you’re talking about to enhance their understanding of self and get their lives a little bit further into alignment?
I think there are several things you could do. Meditating is very good. It’s being in the present and stopping your energy from flying all over the place because that’s how most people’s energy is. Helping it come back to you, getting rid of other people’s energy, and having your own energy to where you can focus on one thing. Maybe you do it sitting down somewhere. I like to go out in nature because I feel the energy of nature. It feels like home. It gets me into where my energy comes back, and I can concentrate on one thing at a time. It is anything that makes you feel comfortable, peaceful, and being in the moment because being in the moment is not what we do a lot of. We’re always thinking about the future or the past, but we’re not 100% at the moment. That’s where the magic happens.
You have to be in the moment and you have to not be denying the moment too.
Look at things. When things feel bad, people go, “Look at what’s going on there.” I can look out my window and I can say, “The sun’s still shining. The birds are still flying. The trees are still turning colors.” I look at all this stuff and concentrate on that. It changes your energy from negative to positive energy.
A lot of people talk about is gratitude journaling as well. I do a good amount of journaling, but not specifically gratitude journaling. I’m starting to try to incorporate more of that into that practice because a lot of it is what you focus on.
You don't have to be rich and famous to love what you do. Share on XMost people focus on what they don’t want then wonder why they don’t get what they want.
It’s where your energy flows. Nigel, I’d like to thank you so much for joining us on the show and informing my audience about the entrepreneurial journey. It is about overcoming some of that trained mindset of waiting for someone to tell you what to do, when and where to do it, and figuring out who you are, what rejuvenates you, and what motivates you.
I encourage all the audience out there to continue on that path. There are many ways to go on that path. This episode and some of my previous episodes have told you about a bunch of ideas about what we can do toward that path, so regardless, hopefully, you do something, and you come out of this with some takeaway and something for you to say, “I’m going to do differently.” I’d like to encourage everyone to stay tuned to this show for more interviews with people who have found a way to make work joyous.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Important Links:
- Nigel Clayton
- The Art of Non-Conformity
- Emily Drost – Previous Episode
- Nigel@UltraNigel.com
About Nigel Clayton
